Hydropower 101 Webinar Text Version

Below is a text version of the Hydropower 101 Webinar presented September 17, 2010. The Webinar focuses on the basics of hydroelectric power, including sources of water power, size and scalability, U.S. capacity and generation, prices, advantages and disadvantages, physics, potential of U.S. resources, existing transmission and land ownership, resource evaluation, plant and system components, challenges of hydropower development, permitting, regulatory considerations, and federal financial incentives. The Webinar also included an introduction to wave power.

Karen Petersen, from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory's (NREL's) Communications Office, served as the Webinar moderator. The presenters were Roger Taylor from NREL's Tribal Energy Program and John Lund from NREL's Geothermal Technologies program.

Operator: Welcome, and thank you for standing by. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. To ask a question during the question and answer session, please press Star 1 on your touchtone phone.

Today's conference is being recorded. If you have any objections, you may disconnect at this time. Now I will turn the call over to Ms. Karen Petersen with National Renewable Laboratory. And you may begin.

Karen Petersen: Thank you. Welcome everyone to Hydropower 101. Today's presentation is the final Webinar in the U.S. Department of Energy's Tribal Energy Program Renewal Energy Basics Series.

I'd like to begin by thanking all of you on the phone for joining us this afternoon. It's a beautiful day here in Golden, Colorado. I'm here with Roger Taylor, our presenter from the Tribal Energy Program. And we're broadcasting from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory's brand new, state-of-the-art research support facility. They tell us it's the most energy-efficient building in the world.

We'll give people a few more minutes to sign on. So while we wait, I'll go over some logistics. And after that, Roger's going to provide us with a little bit of background on the Tribal Energy Program, and then he'll delve into today's topic, which is hydroelectric power.

Today we'll focus on the kind of background and basic information that will be of value to tribes who are interested in developing hydropower projects on tribal lands.

So first of all, I'd like to let all of you know that the presentation—today's presentation will be posted online. It'll be on the Tribal Energy Program Web site under Webinars. And the URL for that is up on your screen, so you may want to copy that into your browser and save it to your favorites now.

And if you're experiencing any problems signing on today, you will need to enable pop-ups in your browser. Usually, if there are problems, that's the issue. So just go ahead and enable pop-ups in the browser to view the presentation.

Also, for those of you who have cameras on your desktop computer, you're going to be broadcasting, so our participants will be able to see you sitting at your desk. It's just kind of a glitch in the software. So if you'd prefer not to look at somebody's desktop, just go ahead and hit the X button and close that window.

Finally, there's a phone number here for accessing the audio. That's 1-800-857-9733. And the passcode's there as well. You'll enter the pass code and then the pound sign. Unfortunately, we don't have a computer phone line as an option with the Live Meeting setup, so again, you'll just need to call in. 1-800-857-9733 for the audio.

We want to encourage everybody to ask questions today. You can type in your questions any time during the presentation, and we'll take a break midway through to answer as many of them as we can. We'll also take a few minutes at the end for questions. So please don't be shy about asking questions. Roger will do his best to answer as many of your questions as possible, and if we can't get to all of them today, we'll have a log of all the questions that are submitted, and we'll post the answers to any we couldn't get to on the Tribal Energy Program Web site.

And you'll also—again, you'll find the presentation and the audio recording up on the site. It should be up within a week or two. Okay. With that, I'd like to introduce Mr. Roger Taylor with NREL's National—with NREL's Tribal Energy Program.

Roger's the principle project manager of the Tribal Energy Program at the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory. And over the past 30 years, his quest has been to expand and promote the use of renewable energy to support sustainable economic development, both domestically and internationally.

Along the way, he's worked in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Energy, other U.S. government agencies, the renewable energy industry, and various financing and development agencies.

Roger was extensively involved in the application of renewable energy systems to the needs of developing communities in 1992 and through—from 1992 through 2000. And he's focused on tribal economic development over the last decade.

Prior to coming to work for NREL, he spent 15 years working on the integration of renewables with electric utilities, which included 10 years working with the Electric Power Research Institute and the EPRI-sponsored Power Electronics Application Center.

Roger has a great presentation today. So with no further ado, I'll turn it over to him.

Roger Taylor: Good morning everyone. And thank you for joining us in this Webinar today. And as soon as we get a title slide here, we'll be ready to go.

This activity is brought to you courtesy of the Department of Energy's Tribal Energy Program. The map here shows what has happened over the last eight years or nine years from 2002 to 2010 here in our activities.

We will have another solicitation on the street this fall. I don't have a release date yet, but sometime in the next 30 to 60 days without a doubt. And it will, once again, cover all of these activity areas from what we call first steps, which is a strategic energy planning opportunity, to figure out what energy use you have on your reservation and in your situation and what the renewable options that you may want to pursue are, feasibility studies, wrestling one of those options to the ground to understand whether you've got the hydro, the wind, the biomass necessary to actually do the project that you want to do

Development steps, which typically include three primary hurdles necessary to get the financing in place, getting through the environmental, the paper process for large projects, getting through the interconnection agreement stage, understanding where the power is going to go, and the purchase power agreement, all of which are necessary to actually develop the financing necessary to put the project in place. And then finally, project development. We will have a window for funds for actual construction projects moving forward.

This simply shows the pipeline of projects that we have developed over the last nine years. There's been a lot of activity in the planning area, and you can see all the renewable activities, including hydro. There's a few tribes that have explored hydro opportunities, and we'll talk about those today.

For further information, please do see our Tribal Energy Program Web site, www.eere.energy.gov/tribalenergy, and you'll find a wealth of information there, as well as other places. Thank you. I think that's—oh, two quick upcoming things.

We do have two events in the queue here. Please be aware. You may be interested, those of you with a good wind resource may be interested in our wind energy training, applications training symposium coming up here at the end of the month, September 28th to 30th. Go to that windenergy.org/weats2010 Web site. If you're interested, sign up. We still do have openings for folks that want to spend three days learning about wind in some detail up at our National Wind Technology Center, and get opportunities to see all the hardware that's up there as well.

In October, the end of October, we have our Tribal Energy Program annual review coming up October 25 to 29 here in Denver. Go to the Tribal Energy Program Web site, click on upcoming workshops and meetings, and you can register through there for that.

And okay. So here we go. Hydropower 101. Hydroelectric power is basically using the heavy-duty lifting of, what should I say, Mother Earth and Grandmother Sky to evaporate water off of the ocean, deposit in the form of rain or snow at higher elevations, and then we have the—can capture the runoff coming in to all our streams around the country.

So it's a fairly simple cycle. It's one of the largest energy cycles going on in the planet. We don't normally think about it as an energy opportunity, but it clearly is. Hydro plants basically use the energy or the potential energy, turned to kinetic energy as the water flows down the rivers and streams.

The head, if we put a certain amount of—put a dam in front of it, we can develop an elevation gradient between the surface of the dam and the river below. And if we can do that in a way without causing further fish problems, it opens up opportunities.

We do recognize and respect the huge problems that hydropower has caused to our fish population, and certainly, those folks in the Pacific Northwest are all over this issue, as is everybody else at this point.

I hope as we go through the day here, the hour that you will see opportunities that are not of the large commercial-scale dams that had been built out throughout the United States. And there are other ways to do these things in a fish-friendly manner, and we'll try and pay attention to those as we go through today's presentation.

Roger Taylor: Waterpower technologies come in several different forms. Two main things. Mostly when we think about hydropower, we think about waterwheels, dams, diversion systems, which is basically taking a little bit of the water out of the stream and running it through a turbine and not taking the whole stream.

Hydrokinetic technology is a very new form of hydropower that's coming along. We will talk about that. And there's overlaps between land-based systems and ocean-based symptoms in the hydrokinetic world. Waves, tidal power are all hydrokinetic technologies.

One thing to think about though as you get into this hydro situation, and a lot of folks have seen climate change happening in their backyard, certainly the folks in Canada and Alaska where it's been warning the most see the biggest changes, this is also likely as we move forward, to change rainfall patterns. And I just want to raise the awareness that the water that we have flowing in the streams today may be different in the future in a way that we have not seen happen in the past.

So while we believe there's major hydro opportunities, we won't see the impacts on the ocean opportunities, but we may well see the impacts on the land-based opportunities.

We have grown up in the United States from the early 1800s being originally 100% renewable energy in the form of wood to the place where we are today and where we have a mix of technologies providing our electric power supply, including significant quantities still of oil in some particular locations.

And this picture is showing all energy, not just electricity. But 6% of the electricity generation coming off of this chart is—it comes from hydropower today. Other sources, big sources are natural gas, a little bit of nuclear you see sliced in there on the red, and non-hydro renewables, which has been historically primarily biomass in the pulp and paper industry.

Now, from our current electricity supply, you can see here 6% hydro and the other breakout, and that's all we need to say here.

Hydropower—one of the nice things about hydropower is it's very scalable, everything from small almost backyard sorts of systems like you can see in the cartoon here. While it's a cartoon, systems like that exist and can be built today, being very simple, very low cost, providing a small amount of power to your local loads. Up through the megadams that we have sprinkled around the country, as this one around the Columbia River.

So small, medium, and large. Starting with the large, just some simple definitions. The Department of Energy generally categorizes large hydropower as anything greater than 30 megawatts, which is a significant amount of power. Small between 30 megawatts down to 100 kilowatts. And what we call micro-hydro is below 100 kilowatts, sort of like the cartoon in the last picture. That would be a micro-hydro system or even a pico-hydro system if you wanted to go that far.

Next. This capacity has been very stable over the last 10 years. In the lower right here, you can see that the amount of hydrogenation in the U.S. has essentially been flat. And the orange line that sort of runs through there shows you the—what has happened to rainfall variations over the last decade and why one needs to be a little circumspect about the amount of water that you're going to have available from year to year as climate change and natural weather pattern event are—the availability of water in the streams that we'd like to use.

Hydropower. One of the attractive things about hydropower is its low cost. While many of these big dams were built back in the '30s and '40s and have largely been depreciated, they are still running today. So one of the nice things about hydro technology is it's at least a 50-year technology.

Once it's installed, once the capital's been recovered from the initial installation, it can be very low-cost power not only because of its longevity, but hydro is one of the few renewable resources that can operate at what we call high-capacity factors, which means that it operates most of the year near its rated capacity, as opposed to a solar panel, which has problems at night, and a wind turbine, which has problems when the wind doesn't blow.

Often with the right system design, the water is always there, and so the electricity is always available. This is one of the real carrots of going after either offshore wave activities or conventional hydropower.

So the advantages simply are no greenhouse gas emissions. It can support the grid. Utilities love hydropower because it is a stable resource. And to a certain extent, you can control it, you can keep water behind the dam, and you can spill it when you want it. So it has a degree of controllability that the wind and the sun don't have.

The fuel, which is the water here in this case, is free. It requires little or no maintenance. These systems are very robust. There's only one moving part, which is essentially the turbine/generator combination, and so there's—if that's designed well, there's very few things to go wrong.

So there's little or—well, there's no fuel use. There's little maintenance with a well-designed system, and 50-year lifetimes are not unreasonable.

There are some disadvantages that need to be recognized going into this. We've already mentioned the fish issues with damming our rivers that basically have been designed in a way to maximize the—either the impoundment behind the dam or for flood control reasons or for irrigation reasons.

Energy in most of the hydro systems around the United States was not the priority. It was not the reason these dams were built. They were built for other reasons, and electricity was an afterthought. So the controllability of the dams is sometimes constrained by other—by irrigation issues or navigation issues.

Reservoirs do flood existing wildlife habitat or people habitat that happened to be in these valleys when the—at the time the dam was built. Unless the system is designed to be fish friendly, it almost, by definition, is fish unfriendly, so that is an issue. They cannot swim upstream past the dam. And for salmon and other species that have a year or multiyear spawning periods, it has really decimated many of the fish populations, particularly in the Pacific Northwest.

It is interesting to see at this point that there is active discussion and active movement toward taking some of those dams down and providing the natural flow back for the fish.

The water below the dam is often—these dams are often very deep, and it gets very cold at the bottom of these dams. And so often the water coming out from underneath these dams can be very cold compared to what the fish are used to. That can be a problem at times.

All hydro plants are affected by drought, whether it's temporary in the form of local weather patterns or this issue that I raised earlier about potential climate change and change in water patterns. It may mean that a system also gets more water than it had in the past, depending upon how our weather patterns change with climate change.

However, there are ways to do these things in diversion systems and hydrokinetic plants that ought to be a lot more habitable to the fish. However, as stream flows, because there is not the storage behind the dam, the power output from these systems will be more variable than if you have a dam.

Major economic advantages to hydropower are obviously the elimination of the cost of fuel and the high-capacity factors, running most of the year at close to the rate power. The cost of operating these plants is basically immune from future fossil fuel increases, price increases.

The fuel is not required, it does not need to be imported. Plants have longer economic lives than fuel-generation technologies often do. Gas-driven, coal-fire plants have a lot going on in them and a lot of things to wear out that hydro plants don't have. So it's a very clean, very reliable technology.

And because of that reliability, the operating cost is often low too because a computer in today's technology can be operating a plant across the state from somebody sitting at a desktop in the capitol. So it is very easy these days to operate these plants with very low maintenance requirements and operator requirements.

Another nice thing about hydropower is that it's—amongst the renewable technologies, it's one of the easiest to get your arms around as far as actually understanding what the power opportunity is. There's only two things you really need to know. What is the flow in cubic feet per second or cubic meters per second? So how much water is coming over the spillway? And what is the elevation difference? What is what we call the head, which is the elevation difference between the high part of the water and the low part of the water?

And that—those two numbers and these two equations, the top one in English units, the bottom one in metric units—oops. No. Other way around. Top one in metric units, bottom one in English units, can get you a pretty good estimate as to what the power is. And that little funny-looking "n," Greek eta, at the back end there is basically a term where you can plug in the turbine generator. Combined efficiency was typically about 80%.

So if you know the flow, you know the head, you know what the efficiency of your turbine is, it's very straightforward to make an estimate of the power output that you can get off the water flow.

There has been some very good work done at a sister laboratory, the Idaho National Laboratory that has gone in and integrated all of the U.S. geological survey hydro data around the country with a topographic map of the United States. And it's sort of like wind map in a sense. It's a prospecting map.

As you can see in the map in the lower right-hand corner, the country has been carved up into 19 separate drainage basins. So the whole—the hydropower prospector is built around the drainage basins. You click on the drainage basin you're interested in, and often you'll see here that a state may have one or more drainage basins coming into its region.

So if you're in one part of the state—and if you're in Kansas, the northern part of the state is in region 10 there, and the lower part of the state is in region 11. So depending upon where you are, where your site is, pick the right region, click on there. And we'll show you in a moment what you'll get to.

As part of this activity, one of the things that Idaho did was compare the existing power with what we could have. New conventional hydro, both low power and large, adds up across the United States, Hawaii and Alaska, to about 62 gigawatts of new potential hydropower, 62,000 megawatts.

Some of that—there's another hydrokinetic, as we'll talk about in the title, sort of offshore activities and other potential of—their estimate was 12.8 gigawatts, and wave energy may bring another 10,000 to 20,000 megawatts for a total of something like 85,000 to 95,000 megawatts, 85 to 95 gigawatts. Huge amounts of power still out there to develop on the hydro side.

If you click on the hydropower prospector in one of the regions—and here we're looking at Northern Idaho, the little sort of—that square in the middle there is the Nez Perce Reservation, and we were up there a few weeks ago doing a training program. But it's—I pulled those slides just to show what you can get out of the hydropower prospector.

On this map you also see the—so the reservation areas are in orange. You see Flathead and a couple of the other reservations in the area. The red dash lines, hopefully you can see those. Those are transmission lines running through the area. You can also click on more roads. You can show more roads. You and show—the green here is—shows ownership. So all the dark green is U.S. Forest Service ownership.

And depending upon where you are, it'll tell you who your neighbors are and who you might need to talk to if the stream is coming from, for example, Forest Service lands or BML lands onto the reservation, to open up that conversation.

The blue dots sprinkled over there, easier to see on this left-hand side of this map because the green sort of covers them up on the right-hand side. Those blue dots, all those blue dots are existing hydro plants. So you can see up in the Pacific Northwest, in the Idaho, Washington, Oregon border area, there's quite a few hydro systems that are already installed.

And interestingly enough, or maybe not surprisingly, they're actually along the transmission lines. So when one wants to build a hydro plant, say, and there's two there on the northeastern part of the Nez Perce Reservation that are existing hydro facilities.

I should also mention to tribes if you're not aware that as these older plants, these older facilities sort of reason their stage for relicensing—and we'll mention a couple times here that there's an outfit in Washington called the FERC, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, controllers hydropower licensing in the United States.

When these dam licenses come up for renewal, if you're tribal—in a tribal situation, you may have an opportunity to pick up the ownership and operation of that dam when it comes up for relicensing. So keep that in the back of your mind. If you've got a hydro system in your neighborhood, it may be worthwhile finding out when its license comes up for expiration and whether the tribe might be able to get a position in the relicensing.

If we zoom in a little further to Nez Perce, this is good, we see a number of opportunities here. All these little blue dots with little tails on them are small hydro opportunities. The—you may be able to pick out the little circle in the upper left-hand corner. I circled one on the Nez Perce Reservation.

Each one of those dots you can click on, and you see at the bottom of the image here a whole bunch of information about that, the characteristics of that particular site. That site is showing that there is about 1.374 megawatt power plant opportunity, and as well as—the little tails are basically the penstock. We'll talk about penstocks in a minute, but that's basically where the water would be picked up.

And the little bump, which is actually a little house if you zoom into this tight enough, would be the place for the power house. So the length of the tail basically tells you where the water is picked up and how long the pipe would need to be. And that's listed along the bottom of the page here is the penstock length.

So there's—for this particular site, it looks like it's about 6,700 feet for that one that's circled, so a little over a mile of penstock to provide that 1.3 megawatts of potential power.

You can also add these up. And just looking across the top there along U.S. Highway 12, if you were to take those one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight turbines and string them together, there's close to 95 megawatts of potential opportunity along that stream there, picking up and reusing the water as it moves downstream. So significant power, 100 megawatts running right through the north part of the Nez Perce Reservation.

The green dots we've added here are low-power conventional systems. Again, with the penstock, basically a pipe, if you will. The circle, the red circle there, which is lightly moved off on the registration here, is just the dot right below it. I don't know why the circle moved, but I must have made a mistake somewhere. It shows that there's about 143-kilowatt opportunity there in that first green dot near the red circle.

And I think if we click on the next slide here, and we'll see that if we were to add up all those—back up—dots together, we'd have about 800 megawatts of potential from those one, two, three, four, five, six dots that are clustered right there in that neighborhood.

So when you see these maps, think about individual sites, think about stringing things together to get more power. If you're going to go through the trouble of doing what's needed to get the power from one place, it may actually be economic to pick all those up and do a batch of systems, as opposed to a single system.

And we've added the light blue on top of this as well, showing the micro-hydro opportunities about the center there and a little lower. Again, the circle moved on me, but that little blue dot there is showing about a 60-megawatt—or a 60-kilowatt—I'm sorry—60-kilowatt opportunity further down in the Nez Perce Rez.

So you can click on all—if you click on all these dots, you can find out what the potential is. And, once again, no guarantees here. It's a prospecting tool, but it can lead you to where there might be some resources. Try and look at places where you're close to transmission, try and look at places where you're close to load. If you can do either one of those, you may well have a good hydro opportunity.

There are basically three different general types of hydropower systems here on onshore. Impoundment, which is basically a dam. Diversion systems, which is where we take a part of the water and not take the whole river as we divert part of the water out of the river, run it through a turbine and put it back into the river.

And importantly, another way—one of the very few ways, basically the only way the utility systems have to store large amounts of electricity is in the form of pump storage, basically running a—building a system where you can pump water uphill during the night time, say, with coal-fired power, two cents a kilowatt hour, and run it downhill during the daytime where the power may be worth eight cents a kilowatt hour, provides a good opportunity.

So pump storage is a variation on the theme where we're moving water between different elevations to actually provide electricity when we want it.

The impoundment systems, everybody's generally familiar with these. It's a large, often concrete dam that is placed all the way across the river. The water backs up behind the dam, provides the head, the elevation difference between the surface of the water behind the dam and the river below the dam. That elevation difference provides the pressure necessary to run the turbine. And this is also the type of system that has caused us all the problems with fish.

If there's not a fish ladder or other specific arrangements made for the fish to be able to continue their annual migrations, this becomes the source of much heartburn and the suffering of those in the Pacific Northwest that have had to deal with this issue.

Diversion systems, I think, are going to be the type of system that we're trying to encourage here. Systems that operate with lakes that don't have a fish issue or streams that don't have a fish issue. And there are some of those around, predominantly in Southeast Alaska where we have very, very high elevations that fish have never had a chance to get into, and so there's no opportunities. They're not spawning streams, particularly in some places.

So those are good opportunities where we care about the fish. We might look at one of these diversion systems where we take a part of the water out of the stream, run it through a turbine. So you can see the intake arrow there at the top, the outlet, little spill. They've drilled a hole through the rock here. The turbine would be down near the outlet, and running power back up to the power house that you can see on the top there.

So let's go on. Pump storage, as we've already talked about, is basically a turbine that runs both directions. This hugely is the same turbine. It simply has power coming out of it as the water goes down and drops to the lower lake. Or you can put power in it and turn the turbine into a pump and run it essentially backwards and pump water back up to the reservoir.

This has been done a number of places. Something to keep an eye on if you have elevation differences. And there's good project opportunities here for working in support of power systems not only on the rez, but in cooperation with the utilities that surround you.

So a simple hydro plant includes these basic components. In these diversion systems, a place to basically pull off the water, let the fish have most of the stream, run part of the water through a pipe down to a lower elevation, and run it into the power house. So that basically, there's the civil works having to do with capturing the water and screening out the rocks and sticks and other things that might come down. Turbines don't like those things, particularly at the speed they run.

So a clean water stream coming down through the pipeline into the power house, running through the turbine, and going simply right back into the stream.

So, once again, the two things you need to know are the elevation difference—you can see it schematically here between the capture of the penstock at the top, the diversion system, the pipe that runs—which is the penstock, I'm sorry—down to the turbine, back into the water down below.

Everything—if you know the head and the flow, you know basically everything about—there's some variations on the pipeline to get it to be the right size so that you minimize the cost while minimizing the effective head drop to the friction along the walls of the pipe while you're coming down.

So a couple easy tradeoffs there to figure out what size pipe you need and what size turbine you need based upon—again, the head and the flow will tell you just about everything you know about sizing the system.

The schematic we've already seen, so let's just keep going. I didn't realize I had it in there twice. So how do we determine what the head is? You can do it with a surveying instrument, one way to do it. You can do it with topographic maps. It depends upon—a little bit on the accuracy that you want. Ultimately, if it's a large system, you're going to want it surveyed because even a few inches can make a difference with large amounts of head.

So anyway, survey, topographic maps, any—but often these systems are such that we've got hundreds of feet of elevation difference. And actually, determining the top to the bottom is not a big deal.

Today's handheld GPS, global positioning systems, have the kind of accuracy necessary to get a pretty good estimate. So if you've got a GPS, you can walk the river and figure out what the elevation difference is, pull off that information, make your estimate a flow. We'll talk about flow here next. So let's just go ahead.

Flow—determining the flow can be a little trickier, but I've got a whole bunch of resource information at the back end of this. It turns out if you build a weir, a special sort of catchment basin in a V shape or in a box shape that the mechanical engineers of the world have gone in and developed equations, and you can simply—knowing the elevation, sort of the thickness of the water level going over the weir, you can figure out from simple calculations what the cubic feet per second flow rate is coming over that weir.

Or if you've got a small system, you can do something as simple as shown here. Take a five-gallon bucket, figure out how long it takes to fill it up. That will tell you what the flow rate is. If it fills up in a minute, you've got five gallons a minute. If it takes five minutes to fill up, you've got one gallon a minute.

And then—so you can do some very simple things. Often—so this is a literally in-your-backyard sort of technology. If you've got a small stream, these things come all the way down to systems that will work at the 100-watt level, as well as the 100-megawatt level.

A series of pictures here for a small system. This is a hot springs in San Luis Valley in South Central Colorado that has a number of these naturally-occurring pools. This is not runoff. Well, part of it's runoff from the snow pack, but a lot of this is ground water that's percolating up through the ground in the Sangre de Cristo Mountains in a couple of different places.

And we'll see that that water flows into a couple of local streams. And one wouldn't think that this is—well, that's not much water there. That's not much of a stream. Well, let's keep going and see what's going on here.

They've got those couple of streams coming together into a single stream. And you can see in the lower right here that the water is going—this sort of grate arrangement underneath where that green garden hose is wound up is the intake for this hydro system. The water spilling off to the right is basically excess water. It's going around the pipeline.

And if we click once more, we'll see that inside behind that grate is a screen. So the water's coming in on the left. It's getting screened out or contaminants, mostly in this case sticks and leaves, to keep them from running through the system.

There's a mesh stainless steel screen in the middle there that runs diagonally. And then the clean water is simply run into a pipe. And one more click will bring us to the next slide.

And you'll see that that pipe—so we've got the hot springs on the left. We've got the collection box and the screen there. And about two miles down into the valley with a difference of elevation of 540 feet. So that water runs through this 12-inch pipe down 9,000 feet to the Pelton turbine at the bottom, spins and generates about 100 kilowatts of power, which is—provides all the power necessary to run this hot springs resort.

It's off grid. It has run reliably for over a decade now on the newest system. They—this is the third-generation system they have installed down there at this point. The largest system that they've had. They moved it further downhill, built a bigger turbine, which you'll see here in a moment.

But there's a 100-kilowatt system running off of that little itty-bitty stream down 9,000 feet, and we're getting 100 kilowatts. Very useful power to be able to provide the community that's uphill.

So another click here, we'll see the turbine. This 100-kilowatt turbine is in the lower left and the lower right. The lower right shows the cap that's been taken off. So this is a Pelton turbine. And we'll talk about turbines here in a second.

But basically, the water's coming in. On that lower left-hand picture you see the valve. That's where the water's coming in. It's going into a nozzle. There's that pipe, that blue pipe takes the bend, and it's blowing water directly at these buckets that are on the right, in the picture on the right-hand side.

Spinning those buckets, which are connected to the generator, which you can see in the background of the picture on the left. So there's turbines in front and then the generator's in the background there.

And let's go on. So the water blasts the Pelton turbine. It spins. It dumps the water simply by gravity. This is sort of the right—literally below the turbine there. Open up a little trap door and look in. The water's spilling out down below.

And one more click, we'll see that that same little stream that we started out with is, once again, a little stream on the back side of this turbine, which runs another about three miles across the valley floor to a wildlife refuge where those trees are in the background.

So that is a complete small hydro system, and the kind of thing that can be done without a huge amount of expense anywhere. That system is also computer controlled as with—there are no—well, they're dump loads, basically, to the extent that the generator is making more power than is needed at the facility. They run that excess power, first of all, into hot water tanks for washing and domestic showers, domestic hot water use.

And the excess power even beyond that is dumped into a special hot tub there at the hot springs that is basically the dump load. So any excess power left over after the washing and the sauna and other resort needs, the lights, the refrigeration, everything that's going on up there, goes in to heat the hot water to make it even hotter for the hot springs.

And there's a whole range. This is not unlike a solar or wind or any other technology. If you're off grid, you may or may not want batteries. In this case, you do want a dump load. If we don't get rid of those electrons somehow, the turbine will speed up, and that's not good news.

We want to maintain basically the voltage and the frequency of 60 hertz here in the United States, so we have to get rid of the power somehow. Either throttle it down on the front end and waste it, or in this case, simply divert it to other useful applications.

So other electronic technology that we might see on a solar panel, on a solar array can be directly used in this sort of arrangement as well in order to maintain the voltage and frequency.

There's a bunch of different turbine types out there, and I don't want to get bogged down in the different kinds of turbines, but I do want to show you that it's been made simple for us by this chart, which is basically a log chart.

So the elevation's on the left. The flow rate and meters per second is along the bottom. And you can see within the drawings there sort of where the Pelton turbine in red, where the Francis turbine, the big yellow part there are, where Kaplan turbines, which are often—well, which are another option here.

So there's a bunch of different turbine designs. And without getting into the weeds on turbine design, this map will tell you if you, once again, you know your head—I've got, let's pick a number, 100 feet of head and a flow rate of 10 meters, 10 cubic meters per second—this thing's built in metric units, so if I pick up the 10 on the bottom and run up to the 100-meter head on the top, it looks like I am in the range. I just missed the blue range of these Kaplan turbines, but I'm fully in the range.

I could potentially go with the Pelton wheel or this Francis turbine design, depending upon the power level that I want it to achieve. So you see also the black lines there are increasing power level, and the technology changes as the power level grows here too.

So understand the flow rate and the head, look at this map, pick a turbine or a couple of them that are nearby, and figure out what's actually on the market at that size that might meet your needs.

The Pelton turbines like the one that we saw there in the—at the hot springs place basically runs through a nozzle. Upper right-hand corner here we're seeing it squirt. And it's basically the high velocity of the water coming out that spins the Pelton wheel, connected to a generator on the back side, and then the water spills out the hole.

This cross-flow turbine is just a variation on the theme there. And if we were to back up a slide, we'd see the cross-flow turbine has a special domain that it works in as well, but we'll go forward here, as opposed to going back.

Larger turbines often look like this. This would be the kinds of systems that would be in the big hydro dams where this system sort of works like a pinwheel where the water in this turbine, in this reaction turbine, is coming in from the top in the red part of the schematic or into the hole where that cap has been taken off in the lower actual photograph.

So the water comes into the center and then flows out through those holes that you can see in the lower photograph into the turbine blades, and it runs around. And the exhaust or the—of the turbine is going out through the big tubes on the outside there. So it's, anyway, a different design. The reaction—what's called a reaction turbine, as opposed to a turbine like a Pelton turbine is being pushed, in this case it's essentially being propelled by the water changing direction. So just a different turbine design.

A couple of tribal projects that have been moving through. The Yakima Nation has worked with the irrigation district in their area, with the Wapato irrigation district and has recently repaired a system that was blown out when Mount St. Helens blew up and spread ash all over the area. The turbine that had been in their BIA installation for a couple of decades or a number of decades, 50 years or so, basically self-destructed at that time at the—with the Mount St. Helens problem. And they've since replaced it.

So basically, they've got a portion of the reservation. You can see all the screens running down there. And the little black dots sort of to the left of the centerline there are drop areas. So you can see drop one, drop two, drop three and drop four. We're gonna take a picture at a couple of those just so you can see what has been done on the Yakima Reservation and, again, sort of visualize the opportunity for you for hydro.

So here's the power house. This is what was built back in the, oh, '30s or '40s originally, a concrete house. And if we click again, Karen, we'll see the inside turbine. The turbine on the left is the one that was destroyed. The turbine on the right is the replacement. And on—and so that gives you a feeling of the scale.

Drop four, which is simply further downstream, is shown in the lower right-hand corner here. So you can see—get a feeling for the elevation difference here, which only looks like about, oh, 20 or 30 feet of elevation drop, which is all the previous one was here underneath the power house. It looks like really flat territory. Well, they're pulling in a fairly large quantity of water, as you can see from the stream flow, over relatively low head, running it through these turbines, and then putting it back in the stream to go on down and ultimately provide the irrigation.

So there's a good example. Those four dots there are sort of like the opportunities that I was showing you earlier on the Idaho National Laboratory hydropower prospector. If you see these things lined up and you can get a transmission lined up along the river, you can string these things together and get fairly large amounts of power fairly quickly.

So the next slide will show you another system. This has not been installed yet, but this is the kind of analysis that needs to be done. The Hoopa Valley Tribe up in northwestern corner of California has done some serious investigation of their hydro opportunities. The—you can see the different watersheds in the upper right-hand corner there, color coded. They've taken a look at those various rivers. They've taken a look in the lower left here at Hostler Creek, which is one of the opportunities that they've been investigating.

It looks like they've identified a site, a gross head of about 40 feet, length of a pipe of 300 feet long, at 10 cubic feet per second, and which would generate about 19 kilowatts of power out of the relatively small system there.

One of the things that is important about the study that they did—and it's great graphics in the lower right-hand corner here that show basically one of the challenges. If you're running—if you don't have a—well, in Northern California there's a rainy period and there's periods where it's not so rainy.

And so you can see the flow coming down this creek, varying as a function of the day of the year, basically. So what we have is a year along the horizontal axis. And these three different charts are different pipe diameters, 36 inches, 42 inches, 48 inches. And what you can see—what we're really looking for is—and this would be a diversion system where we get as much water flowing through the pipe as possible.

The nice thing about this particular location, as you can see from the waterfall, is this is in a location where we don't—where there aren't fish. These waterfalls basically prevent the fish from coming up. So upstream of the waterfall is a great place to look for opportunities for small hydro.

One of the things that you see here in the green bars, again, back to the lower right-hand corner, is how much of the water can you actually get to flow through as a tradeoff between the size of the pipe, the amount of water flowing through, and the distance you have to go, obviously, in the transmission line. So you can see that the smaller pipe doesn't get as much of the green as the larger pipe does, but—so anyway, there's tradeoffs.

How much do you want to spend for the power? How much do you want to invest in steel pipe? And where is the optimum? They're still working through that, but what you can see here is that that stream does not flow all year around at the flow rates necessary to generate electricity. So with big dams we get steady flow. With river sort of applications, we don't have the steady flow. And so it becomes a tradeoff of how much of the water do we want to use and how much investment do we want to make in the system?

Let's stop here, Karen, and see whether we have any quick questions. I think we're—you know, we're about halfway through the slides. And as we—just go forward one more—

Karen Petersen: Okay.

Roger Taylor: —for me just a second here.

Karen Petersen: Mm-hmm.

Roger Taylor: 'Cause I forget exactly—yeah, let's—okay. So this is—the balance of this is basically looking at hydrokinetic systems. So do we have—let's back up a slide and just ask—see if we've got any questions that we need to look at.

Karen Petersen: We've got one or two here, but really, I encourage you to ask any questions that come to mind. Right now we've got a question from George. Have you looked into canal systems for micro hydro?

Roger Taylor: Well, yes. Canal systems—irrigation systems, which is exactly what the Wapato Irrigation District is, is—they're working directly on the canal system there. And I'd meant to throw in a slide of a canal down at Gila River in Arizona. One might not think that there's a lot of water in Arizona, but—and there isn't any longer in the river because it's all been put into the irrigation canal, but—so yes, canals and irrigation systems are perfect places to look for an opportunity. Much of the civil works has already been done for you.

Karen Petersen: Okay. Great. And the other question, I think, is probably specific to a particular slide. And I apologize, I'm not sure which slide he was referring to, but from Timothy. Is the power indicated a yearly generation or kilowatt hours? So if Tim wants to follow up on that, we'll—

Roger Taylor: Okay. Generally, what we're looking for is kilowatt hours per year is the metric that we're trying to achieve. Both power and energy are important here. The power size, whether it's a 10-kilowatt, a 100-kilowatt system, basically tell you what the cost of the system is going to be. And the kilowatt hours tell you a little bit more about what the revenue's gonna be off of—off that size.

So yeah, we don't want to overbuild for the flow coming through the system and—but it's all—as we all know, it ultimately gets down to the cost effectiveness of the system as to what finally gets put in. And that's—those are the sorts of discussions that Hoopa continues to struggle with about—okay, we've got this variable flow coming off of multiple rivers. What do we really want to do here? And so that part of the analysis can take some time.

Karen Petersen: Okay. Excellent. It doesn't look like we have any more questions at the moment.

Roger Taylor: Okay. Okay.

Karen Petersen: So we will move along and see if any others come up, and we'll take some more questions at the end.

Roger Taylor: Then we'll—just watching the clock here. We're doing pretty good on time. Hydrokinetic. This is, by and large, a very new technology that conceptually has been around for a while, but has not made it into the marketplace yet.

And I—as I was going through preparing for this, I tripped across this Electric Power Research Institute, EPRI, report. If you just Google EPRI or that report number. This is a very interesting report that tries—that compares two, four, six, eight, these different eight hydrokinetic turbine designs. And we're gonna look at all these here. So let's just go ahead. And I just wanted to leave the footprint here.

So we see vertical axis, horizontal axis machines, different diameters. How big is the box? How big is the machine? And various amounts of power out the bottom. None of these are huge. Now, 400 kilowatts there under this UEK, underwater electric kite, system, is the biggest of the bunch, but—oh, well, now we got a megawatt and a half. I'm reading it wrong. And a megawatt.

So megawatts—there's kilowatts—seven kilowatts up to the megawatt scale, so we're seeing—we're gonna see here in some pictures the huge range of sizes.

And these are directly off the report. I just provide them here for your entertainment. This Gorlov helical turbine, and we'll see a couple of different helical designs. These things are sort of like eggbeaters or sort of like your push lawnmower. You may think of it that way, as we've got these rotator blades. Well, instead of mowing the lawn, you can actually use that sort of arrangement to capture energy.

Figure 5 is a turbine in a housing arrangement. Figure 6 is a fairly large system that's under some ocean tests here. Figure 7, a version of a design where they're looking at basically having these propellers be on a tube that's mounted to the ocean floor, basically much like an offshore wind turbine might be mounted that has the ability to lift the blades out of the water and drop them down into the water in that particular scheme.

Go on to the next slide. We'll see figure 8, this open hydro rim-drive turbine. That basically means that the blades in the middle there are going to be rotating, and they're held in place by the rim on the outside. And I have not explored this enough to know, but they—we've seen wind turbine designs recently come out in this sort of arrangement too where the outside is—actually becomes the generator as well.

And so we get variable frequency AC power out that's then run through a power electronics box to turn it into direct current and back into alternating current. That design may be one of these new arrangements taking advantage of what we can do in power electronics today.

Figure 9, vertical axis turbine. Oh, the coloring here, you can't quite see it, but it's—it looks like sort of an underwater turbine, but it's a cartoon. So it's not ready for prime time yet. Figure 10, another one of these sort of blades underneath the water. Figure 11 here, this UEK system, which is a fairly large system. And if you looked at it from the different angle, you'd see the blades in the middle there, again, the housing. A different design, but a little bit like figure 8 with the generator in the middle.

And then there's Verdant Power who has been working on this what sort of looks like a torpedo with some big blades on the end that is also out there. I will stick my neck out and basically say as you peruse this sort of world, whenever you see—whenever you go to a Web site and all there are is cartoons, be cautious.

There's lots of good ideas out there. A lot of those ideas have not been reduced to commercial practice at this point. So this is an area where there's fairly large amounts of money going into it. And I think maybe the next slide talks to that.

Oh, no, this is another—this is—this was—so Verdant Power, picking up on that, they've actually built some of these here. So it's not just cartoons. And they're basically in this system here—oh, let's see here. So the phase two demonstration was completed. They recently achieved a major milestone by successfully completed the project, which began in 2006, a 5-meter rotor diameter, a fairly large system, a free-flow turbine, into the East River nearby New York.

So this is one of the first systems that's actually flown or, yeah, I guess I don't know what you'd call it—run—underwater in the East River there near New York. Over a two-year period, they have operated six full-scale turbines in an array. I think there's a picture of this a little later on. So the other thing—once again, you can gang these things up either one behind another or side by side in order to do this business.

So I talked this one out as a technology, which has made it past the cartoon stage to show that there is real stuff going on here as well. Here's the one that sort of looks like the—as I was talking earlier, the push lawnmower. So this boom drops down into the water, and as the water moves by it, it rotates, and a little bit of electricity is generated.

Next. Cross-flow turbine. Here's one. Encurrent out of Canada, our colleague Brian Hirsch in Alaska was—has worked on this system. These are his photos of a prototype that was dropped into the Yukon River and operated last summer. And I think people put it out there again this summer. I have not heard for sure.

Just a couple of different photographs of that. This is on a barge sort of arrangement. Upper left-hand corner there. It's tipped up out. So it rotates the propeller arrangement sort of like a vertical axis wind turbine, drops down into the water, and you can see it—on its platform out there offshore, they've designed a system to try and keep the logs and things that float down the Yukon River from impacting the turbine, so they built this boom arrangement.

Of course, when you do that, you slow down the water a little bit, so there's lots of tradeoffs in these sorts of designs. But it's becoming interesting enough that people are experimenting. And there is some serious technology development going on here.

Those folks have built a larger turbine as well. This is a Canadian company, and this is their first 25-kilowatt turbine. Another thing that Brian did with—along the Yukon River there is take advantage of some Doppler acoustic sonar systems. And so what you see—one of the things about rivers is we often don't know kind of what the flow rate is across the river. So I guess I want to just tell you that there is technology out there that you can drop in the water and sort of like a radar system, it bounces sound waves around the water, and you can then determine not only how deep it is—so you can see the profile of the Yukon River there—as well as the water speed.

So this system in the previous slide where we were over on the right-hand side fairly near the shore is probably not the optimum place, but then we've got other issues. How do we get the power back to shore if we get further away from shore? So—but you can see the velocity profile across the river there, which is actually quite interesting, and the first time I've seen a chart like this.

Another system, hydrokinetic system, is this company Hydro Green Energy. This was a press release from December 15, 2008, coming up on two years ago. It was the first of two turbines dropped in near Hastings, Minnesota, into the Mississippi River. So there's a barge-mounted system that was put just below dam number two that you can see in the background there. Two of those were stacked up and dropped into the river.

And I was looking around in preparation for this for a report, but I didn't see one. So I hope that it ran well and I hope that it's still running, but I don't know for sure that it is. But looking at their Web site, here's some better pictures of that system that was done and shows its location. And I'm pretty sure it would have said if it had been pulled out, but maybe not.

So anyway, a good system. Prototype test under way in the Mississippi River. That's the kind of flow. So tidal flow, slow river flow, Mississippi River flow, Yukon River flow, where these hydrokinetic technologies are really sort of targeted for. And hopefully we're gonna see them come to fruition and become commercially available.

Here are some of the challenges. This is Brian's list of things to worry about. This is the Yukon River during a breakup in the springtime. So up in the middle of Alaska things get cold enough to basically freeze over the whole river. A kind of challenge in their environment that one needs to recognize seriously because if there's anything in the way of this, it's gonna get swept down the river along with everything else.

So the ice breakup, silt, anchoring, how do we do anchoring? What is the water speed? How are we gonna get the power to shore? If it's navigable waters, then there are more issues that FERC worries about and the Coast Guard and other folks, depending on how close you are, jurisdiction you're in, fish, and permitting.

So while, in principle, if—the Mississippi River may be a better opportunity than the Yukon River simply because we don't have to deal with the ice flow. But when you're paying 50 cents a kilowatt hour in these remote communities, we're looking for any opportunity we have to reduce the power cost.

So there's that hydro—there's basically water flow kinds of technologies, and then along with that is coming—sort of the second variation on the theme here of hydrokinetic turbines is wave power. And these pictures show you that there is—there are some things going on here in wave power. And what's out there on the Web is—I'm trying to figure out how to pronounce it—Pelamis wave power is my guess—is a hydraulic system.

So as the waves come along, this snakelike arrangement is bending back and forth. And you can see in the schematic what they're doing is basically compressing probably hydraulic fluid, potentially water, just to avoid leaks and contamination, I would think. But basically, compressing a fluid, and then running that pressurized fluid through a turbine to generate the electricity. So a high mechanical advantage.

Another shot of the same system in a little rougher seas. And there are experiments going on here off of Portugal. This point absorber, Ocean Power Technologies has a boom and a floating arrangement, and it moves up and down as the waves come along. And again, the actuator generates electricity.

Here's a system designed to be an onshore system—or near-to-shore system—where the waves would come in, get captured under this arrangement, and basically develop an air pressure. You may have seen the blow holes in California if you've been in the right place at the right time.

The waves come in, and it spouts out. Well, that water is essentially the same sort of thing that they're looking at here is how do we capture that wave energy, turn it into kinetic energy, and then run it through some sort of air turbine here?

Another arrangement called an overtopping system. You basically float a pond on top of the ocean, but do it in such a way that the waves can creep over the top and then have to find their way back into the surface of the equivalent of the ocean surface now that it's a little deeper so that—all that water is basically being funneled in, run through a turbine in the middle, then simply dumps it back into the ocean. So a simple way of trying to capture a small elevation difference, but in this case, with fairly large volumes of water in order to get the power.

And one more arrangement here. This aquamarine oyster where, obviously, the principle is to allow this boom to wriggle back and forth, so this thing's wandering back and forth and as the waves come in and out, it, again, is actuating to provide this high-pressure flow line, it could be hydraulic fluid or water, that runs up to a power system that's mounted onshore instead of mounted contiguous with the collection system.

Some cartoons here of another sort of arrangement idea of floating a bunch of these point systems out in the middle, each one of which would have a little turbine inside that would generate electricity that would be brought back to shore. Not a commercial unit yet. Another system. This is a company in Australia doing a similar arrangement.

Next. Closing in toward the end here, these are, as of about a year ago, the permits that had been issued by the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to explore hydrokinetic opportunities. You can see a whole lot of hash there in the Mississippi River.

A lot of people want access to the Mississippi, the Ohio coming in off the northeast. And then these offshore wave applications dotting New England and along the California and West Coast opportunities. So we've got wave, tidal, and inland opportunities all being explored by various commercial entities who have gone to FERC and gotten the permit to play in the water.

A huge potential along the coastline of Alaska if these things—although the one thing I want to throw out here is just Roger Taylor's anecdotal comment is the ocean is a very unforgiving environment. And so a storm can come in, you definitely need to allow for worst-case conditions and these sort of designs that the systems just simply don't blow away and end up at the bottom of the ocean. So very challenging environment, which is one of the main reasons why we don't see a lot of commercial technology here yet.

So permitting and related issues. If you're interested in this, there's a number of folks you're probably gonna have to talk to, the local/state Department of Natural Resources. In this case, it was put together for Alaska. Again, so Fish Habitat and Fish Collection. Alaska Department of Fish and Game is what that acronym stands for.

The Coastal Zone Management people, the Army Corps of Engineers. You may want to—have to talk to them. FERC, particularly if you're near navigable waterways, the Army Corps wants to know about that.

FERC is the licensing place, and they have a three-stage program here. You can get a preliminary permit, which is what all those were on the previous map that we were looking at, which is for up to three years to show progress and maintain an exclusive right to develop and apply for a pilot project or full license downstream. So you can get an initial three-year license to, I'll call it play, in the water.

The next step if you are successful in getting through that and can show yourself and your bankers that you've got a viable technology is you can get a project license for up to five years to basically prove the technology, do the pilot test. And once things are good to go, a full permit, which is the same as for hydropower licensing, you can get a 30-year to 50-year permit to basically plant something permanently there and provide power opportunities. And, of course, if you're on the ocean, the Coast Guard probably wants to know that you're there.

This is the FERC Web site. This FERC.gov/industry/hydropower. You can't read it there. It's way too dense information, but I wanted to provide you the URL for—this is where you go to FERC to start the process.

And interestingly enough, just last week—I wanted to make a point of this—is DOE has recently awarded a big bag of money to a number of companies here last—well, just on September 10th here. Secretary of Energy Chu announced the selections of more than $37 million worth of funding to accelerate technological and commercial readiness of emerging marine and hydrokinetic technologies, MHK here folks. Okay? We've got a new acronym. If you ever see MHK, marine and hydrokinetic. That was a new one on me, so latest in the acronym soup.

We seek to generate renewable electricity for the nation's—from the nation's oceans and free-flowing rivers. So 27 projects have been awarded ranging from a concept to component design to research prototype and development and in-water testing. Unprecedented level of funding will advance the ability of these technologies to move forward.

This funding represents the largest single investment of federal funding to date in the development of marine and hydrokinetic technology. So Washington has got it. They're on the plan here, and hopefully out of that we'll see a couple of technologies emerge that will make it to the commercial marketplace.

On the FERC front there's been movement there too as well, interestingly enough. So just these three press releases real recently that showed up in the Hydroworld.com Web site here in the last couple of days. FERC licenses a small Kansas project in six months. So one of the issues has been the duration of FERC licensing. So FERC's getting on board here.

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has licensed a small hydro project in the Kansas River in only six months, one of several recent expedited licensing of small projects having few environmental issues.

FERC launches small and low hydro—low-impact hydro Internet site. So they've put something up there. And I must admit that I have not looked at that site yet. And FERC in Colorado planned to—a pilot program for a small hydro exemptions, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in the State of Colorado has signed an MOU under which Colorado is to develop a pilot program to advanced FERC hydropower licensing exemptions for small hydro projects in the state. That one was—all three of these were a surprise to me. All happened relatively recently, all really good news. So a lot of action here in the hydrokinetic world.

There are financial incentives out there for small hydro for new incremental hydro, hydro that is not already existing and hasn't been around for 50 years can—does have access to the federal incentive programs. And anyway, I just leave that out there. There is money, incentives the Tribal Energy Program has funded, and we will have solicitations on the street in the next 30 to 60 days, as I said, everything from feasibility up through deployment.

So I'll be surprised if we fund a hydrokinetic project, but who knows? It may happen. In the next several slides here, which will be on our Web site when we close this out next week or so, there's several slides here simply with resource information, more Web sites. And I'm not gonna grind through them, but I leave them for your browsing entertainment in the future. And Karen, you can probably click through those.

Karen Petersen: Mm-hmm.

Roger Taylor: And there's legal considerations. There's a whole bunch of stuff here of good places to go and explore what's going on. So I think that comes close to an end—to the end. If we've got a couple questions, we can do those and—

Karen Petersen: Yeah. Thank you, Roger. That was excellent. And apparently, you've been so thorough that that there are no questions. We've got one follow-up from Tim from earlier. His question, he says, referred to the land ownership existing hydro slides where you could click on a particular point on the map and it would give you an estimated power available in wattage. Is that an annual production or system size?

Roger Taylor: Oh, well, you—the numbers that are shown there are system size, not annual production. So it's an estimate of—and the way that that was built is—well, let's see here, if I get this right. Yeah. What's shown in the bottom line there, sort of below the graph when you click on each one of those dots is essentially system design information, not energy production information.

Karen Petersen: Okay. Thanks Roger. That looks like that's it.

Roger Taylor: Okay.

Karen Petersen: We don't have any further questions. So with that, I'd like to thank you all for participating in today's Tribal Energy Program webinar. We've had a great audience, and we thank you for your time this afternoon. Again, please check the Web site, Tribal Energy Program Web site next week if you'd like to view the slides and listen to a recording on the webinar. Thanks very much.

Roger Taylor: Thank you everybody. Have a good day.